Addressed to VATNZ (Sort of Feedback Situation)

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Brodie Murdoch
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Addressed to VATNZ (Sort of Feedback Situation)

#1 Post by Brodie Murdoch » Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:11 am

Hi All,

Under the circumstances that is currently happening within VATNZ i would like to address some of the things that i think needs to change but also list some of the problems that we are facing within VATNZ.

Please read before considering to delete it. By deleting it shows who have no interest in improving VATNZ and dont care to what your members think. Think of this as a feedback type topic

Before i get into this i would like to send my apologies to the people who arn't apart of this matter as i would of send this as a private email to the Division Staff but us members are finding it hard so keep in contact with the Division at points as they are not actively responding to emails, social media is not the correct service to state the matter so therefore it leaves me with no choice but to post it on this forum where it'll be cleared viewed by VATNZ Staff.

Discussion 1

Teamspeak

Teamspeak, As we all know there has been a major problem with teamspeak which has led into a giant WALL between VATNZ Members and VATNZ Staff, as this has been going on for so long i dont even remember when it started as it has been going on for far too long and it is ripping the Division apart. I dont understand the problem or even if there is a problem. Well there is a problem because it is like Staff vs Members and it dosent look pretty when a new member joins and sees all the crap that goes on. I am not afraid to mention that each day everyone in the General Rooms are breaching the Teamspeak Policy in someway whether it is harassment, recording someone in the teamspeak without permission, playing a 3 minute song, using teamspeak voice changer or even relating someone to real-world tragic event that has happened in the past. Everyone on the teamspeak has been the victim and the suspect in the teamspeak whether it is open or closed doors but it actually needs to stop. The only way it is going to stop is to actually do the job that is required by enforcing the rules set within the Policy itself. Outta all the VATSIM Division teamspeak ive joined to including those for my Visiting Controlling i'd have to say VATNZ is far by the worse. You dont see VATPAC's staff members having a giant wall and not communicate with its members for 90% of the week and only talk to members in regards to training matters etc. By changing this and actually doing the right thing youd lead VATNZ to be an enjoyable place for members to be able to communicate with its staff members and maybe get those face that have left us due to the disturbance of what VATNZ is like now on its teamspeak server. I myself and not afraid to amit that i have been in the wrong harassed and bullied members before and talked behind peoples backs only to keep myself positive with the other members but honestly its time for a change a change that we have been wishing for, for a very long time and i cant do this on my own is no one else is going to participate and try to change from whats wrong to whats right.

Discussion 2

VATNZ Events

As we all know this is where we get into major arguments over events and goes very off topic as experienced in the past in previous topics somewhere in the VATNZ Forums. Well first i would like to thank Eric for his hard work he has done to provide us with the Events that he has done since being sworn in for the job. Events are the heart of a Division vACC ARTCC it provides members from all over VATSIM to experience the life of ATC from that particular place but also to connect with others and to enjoy themselves on the Network. The key thing here is that VATNZ doesn't care about its events there always something that has an effect on each events whether it is low ATC participation, logging offline early, repetative events in a row or event low pilot participation. I remember back in 2015 even early 2016 the Events we have we very repetative but had high ATC participation from start to finish and high aircraft participation for each event but since then it has gradually decreased til the point where sometimes we only have 1 controller on for the whole event. The only way we are going to increase aircraft levels is if we commit to the hours required for each event 7pm-10pm on a Wednesday 7pm to 11pm on Saturdays. Pilots arnt interested if they are going to expect ATC to log offline during the middle of the event at 9pm it is hard and fustrating for everyone. For example Auckland to Niue. Auckland Radio comes online at 6pm then needs to log offline at 9pm which Aircraft will most likely 1/2 way between Auckland to Niue. Its hard for Pilots because if they dont get another NZZO_FSS Online then it puts a lot of weight onto NSFA_CTR and NIUE_TWR because theres not FSS to maintain separation and its hard when CTR only has about 80nm of room to sort out 10+ aircraft. So the point here is we need to maintain our online presences during events to show VATSIM that we are keen to receive traffic and we arnt the ones who are like only 4 aircraft stuff this lets talk on teamspeak and screw the event because all it is doing is putting VATNZ in a deeper hole for someone to try and dig it up later when it is 20ft below surface. I know that i havent been around much to control events due to the fact i do have work roughly 6 nights a week from 5pm to 9pm which sadly covers Wed and Sat but i will try my best do jump on around 930pm which i guess everyone minute is a effort and theres no harm even to help out for 20 or so mins at the end of the event but yet again this needs to be a group participation not a solo. Now yet another point in events which is kinda aimed for Events Dept. how long are we going to wait for another major event to rise up because i do recall in a closed for discussion back when i was a mentor that VATNZ had some good events lined up in the up coming future with other division not just VATPAC i dont want to release more detials but when are we expected to see these events because i understand that these take time but surely not 6+ months because the last major event i recall was Auckland Real Ops back in August/September which has organised but VATNZ excl Worldflight in Nov which was organised but a separate organisation and also what happened to this as mention by the event director on Posted: Sat May 07, 2016 11:19 am
Hello Everyone

Congratulations to Cathay Pacific Virtual that won the virtual ops last night. Having the most aircraft movements per gate.

Here are the top 3 airlines:

Cathay Pacific Virtual: 14 Movements / 2 Gates = 7 points
Air New Zealand Virtual: 13 Movements / 2 Gates = 6.5points
Millennium Air Virtual: 13 Movements / 2 Gates = 6.5 points
QVirtual: 5 Movements / 2 Gates = 2.5points
FedEx: 6 Movements / 3 Gates = 2points

Thank you to all airlines and controllers that participated.
We will be running another event in 2 months time approximately. Cathay will be able to select the next event location and challenge. We look forward to more airlines participating for the next event.

Many Thanks,

_________________
Eric Coufmann
VATNZ Events Director
Like surely its been well over 2 months :)

The problem i have is VATNZ says but dosent delivery which is hard for us members to understand why is this happening like have you forgotten or just dont really care about the Division i dont actually know.

Discussion 3

Operations

First off this is probably the least if have doubts with but i would congratulate Duncan for his work up keep VATNZ updated every month this the most detailed sectorfiles if seen from any Division at VATSIM for +1 for Duncan and VATNZ.

The only point i think that we should consider in the near future is trying to focus VATNZ within other regions in our Division such as the South pacific and the Deep South Ice Cap. Like what VATPAC has done in the past example last week and the week before going outta the box and doing a focus week on a different area of course this would require up to date airspace material for the region in conjunction for the Events and ATC Training department to supply us with a Event and some local phaseology to help new controller in the area to understand the local procedures which will also make it an extra +1 for VATNZ being the 1st Division in a very long time or event in VATSIM History to actually focus within the Pacific as VATPAC has none nothing with Fiji and Tahiti Areas or VATSA (South America) with Easter Island FIR

Discussion 4

Training

Nothing much to say here as i have done training but maybe try to give us old rated controllers the inside story to when certain phaseology is changed or updated

Example - ANZ123 DESCEND VIA THE STAR PROFILE TO 3000FT EXPECT THE ILS/DME APP 23L AUCKLAND QNH 1013
Example - ANZ123 DESCEND VIA THE STAR PROFILE TO 3000FT AUCKLAND QNH 1013
Example - ANZ123 DESCEND VIA THE STAR PROFILE TO 3000FT NORTHLAND QNH 1013

Things change but we dont know its changed until we hear new controller using slightly different phaseology and just old controllers get pulled a side because we are doing it wrong. Im sorry but a little heads up would be nice like a notification in the forums saying. Hi Guys something has changed please look it up. Like i understand that we are the ones who need to to the research but im sure some of us can agree that we dont wont to be spending each day going through training material to see whats been updated and not. This is led to the lack of communication between staff and members which i do believe that needs to change. Also i cant speak on behalf of other people but i have heard many things that has impacted the students in VATNZ with there training which wasnt like this back in early 2016 when i was a VATNZ Mentor.

Discussion 5

Lack of Communication

Im sure that many of us have been effected by this and i do believe that this is improving but at a very slow speed. Communication and a key thing to have in a division and VATNZ doesnt have that this goes back to the teamspeak discussion but also a lack of communication between controllers eg. members to vatnz staff like whos covering what sectors but also the lack in response via emails. Example i tried to apply for SUP it asked for a recomindation i asked Ray from Regional at Acting Director he couldnt as he was the processing team for SUP's so my next option was down to the VATNZ1 sent a email no respond what so ever i dont understand why but it doesnt matter now but i'd still like to no the answer why i didnt receive any email from VATNZ1

Below are some few questions that should be answered by VATNZ Staff.

Is it possible for VATNZ to have a townhall meeting to discuss things in regards to the Division

Are we expected to see any change in terms of advertising VATNZ to make ourselves more noticable

Have there been any changes to ATC Material such as phaseology since the start of 2017

Are there going to be any updates / changes in terms of VA within VATNZ instead of having some who havent contributed to VATNZ for a while

Anyway i hope that you can understand where abouts i am coming from VATNZ STAFF i would like to see this division change into and enjoyable and inviting division and ill do every bit i can to contribute to help this division become what it needs to be but it'll only for if everyone contributes starting with staff and communication. I want to see VATNZ rise up to get dig more holes into VATSIM

Many Thanks
Brodie Murdoch (1306312)
Visiting C1 Controller | Oceanic Endorsed
Deputy Division Director | AFV Facility Engineer
VATSIM West Asia Division

Andrew Ogden
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Location: Melbourne Australia

Re: Addressed to VATNZ (Sort of Feedback Situation)

#2 Post by Andrew Ogden » Wed Apr 26, 2017 1:31 pm

Brodie Murdoch wrote: Discussion 1

Teamspeak

Teamspeak, As we all know there has been a major problem with teamspeak which has led into a giant WALL between VATNZ Members and VATNZ Staff, as this has been going on for so long i dont even remember when it started as it has been going on for far too long and it is ripping the Division apart.
This one resonates with me more than any other discussion on this post. I'm obviously not the only one, judging by Brodies post. I am fed up with this, this is getting ridiculous. This is one of the reasons i have pulled back from VATNZ considerably. I have almost never seen a VATNZ division staff member (no names) come into a public lounge to have a chat (bar a few), which I find quite rude that you can't come and talk to us to let us know of new things that are happening, as the staff members are the members that make things happen! Every time a staff member comes into a public lounge, it is to move someone or to observe and tell us off for some minute policy breach. Come on! I have seen a few members pull back/transfer listing this as a reason.
Brodie Murdoch wrote: Discussion 4

Training

Nothing much to say here as i have done training but maybe try to give us old rated controllers the inside story to when certain phaseology is changed or updated.

Example - ANZ123 DESCEND VIA THE STAR PROFILE TO 3000FT EXPECT THE ILS/DME APP 23L AUCKLAND QNH 1013
Example - ANZ123 DESCEND VIA THE STAR PROFILE TO 3000FT AUCKLAND QNH 1013
Example - ANZ123 DESCEND VIA THE STAR PROFILE TO 3000FT NORTHLAND QNH 1013

Things change but we dont know its changed until we hear new controller using slightly different phaseology and just old controllers get pulled a side because we are doing it wrong. Im sorry but a little heads up would be nice like a notification in the forums saying. Hi Guys something has changed please look it up.
As a seasoned controller within VATNZ, I agree with Brodie, as i quite often get told off for using the wrong phraseology, when no one has been notified. A forum post would do, its like every change is kept secret and released without our knowledge.

Anyway, that's my two cents, I will probably not be making another contribution to this topic as i can see this becoming a staff vs member argument.
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Andrew Moseley
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Re: Addressed to VATNZ (Sort of Feedback Situation)

#3 Post by Andrew Moseley » Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:10 pm

Brodie,
thank you for taking the time to post.

I am about to head away for work so can I please request a week or two to investigate and respond to your post. I may need to contact you for further information and this will be via email.

Thanks
Andrew Moseley
VATNZ - Division Director
VATNZ Founder

Brodie Murdoch
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Re: Addressed to VATNZ (Sort of Feedback Situation)

#4 Post by Brodie Murdoch » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:35 pm

Ok Thanks Andrew
Brodie Murdoch (1306312)
Visiting C1 Controller | Oceanic Endorsed
Deputy Division Director | AFV Facility Engineer
VATSIM West Asia Division

Fenton Loveday
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Re: Addressed to VATNZ (Sort of Feedback Situation)

#5 Post by Fenton Loveday » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:13 pm

Hey

I agree completly with Brodie. We as members of the VATNZ division need to be informed about any major changes. For example, I was never informed that the teamspeak was being closed for PUBLIC USE until I found out later that there is a SO CALLED TECHNICAL ISSUE after Thomas Marshall who was still on the teamspeak at the time asked the question on my behalf. So why were Logan Earnshaw and myself disconnected from the teamspeak and not Thomas.

I would also like to recomend that a VATNZ townhall meeting is held sometime in the near future so those of us who don't have a voice within the division can have a say. Hopefully this will help to resolve some big issues that many of us members have with the division. This is a good way to keep everyone involved and up to date with any plans and changes to the division. Trust me, I'm not the only one that wants a big meeting involving members and directors.

Thanks
Fenton Loveday | Enroute Controller | ATC Training Mentor | Airspace/ Operations Director

Zain Khan
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Re: Addressed to VATNZ (Sort of Feedback Situation)

#6 Post by Zain Khan » Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:31 pm

I absolutely agree with Brodie with his points. And yes, we really need a town hall style meeting between members and staff to discuss what would fit best with VATNZ.

What annoys me the most is the fact that when controller procedures change, the controller team isn't notified of these changes which is what Brodie discussed. Well since unfortunately Training staff won't even open up about changes to procedures then without us even knowing, we were told that what we were doing is wrong, as if we were spoilt brats who don't even deserve to have a rating. HELLO??? What on earth is happening? And deviating from the training material etc. for example I was failed because I had <3 minutes separation where on the moodle it specifically states 5NM. Seriously???? The training material could have been at least updated so we know what we expect to do!!! And I have been pushing for real world level realism for a long time which adds in new phraseology such as;

* "ANZ106, IDENTIFIED FL370, CLEARED THE ARADI5C ARRIVAL, EXPECT RNAV X APPROACH RWY 23L."
*"ANZ106, WHEN READY DESCEND TO 11,000ft, AUCKLAND WEATHER DELTA QNH 1019."
*"ANZ544, DESCEND VIA THE STAR PROFILE TO 5,000ft RADAR TERRAIN, AUCKLAND WEATHER DELTA QNH 1019."
*"ANZ101, CONTACT AUCKLAND RADIO VHF 128.900 AND MONITOR HF PRIMARY 8.867, SECONDARY 13.261." (Without CPDLC, with HF compatibility.)

And yet these suggestions have been blocked off and weren't really raised to the appropriate jurisdictions, and the feedback isn't what I was hoping, and insufficient reasoning.
(SERIOUS NOTE: I have listened to real world ATC in NZ (Auckland Controls 123.900 and 124.300, Auckland Tower 118.700 and Auckland Ground 121.900), so don't even dare to argue to me over it.)

NOTE: Local Weather involves the ATIS letter which for example here is DELTA for NZAA.

And Teamspeak, oh boy, one word to explain it, a battlezone. Where members would be breaking rules constantly and the staff are sitting on their laurels in the Training Team Room, this is what drives people off, AGREED. No wonder every day on Teamspeak it's people who even try and push things beyond limits and stir up a ruckus, whether in open chat rooms or in closed space like the Training Team Room. And the staff are a bit too confined to their rooms (Not all of them but a majority.) and don't even bother coming out and talking to us members.

I therefore should call for a meeting to take place. Rant over for now on some places and this is my 2 cents worth.

Cheers. And Thanks Brodie for creating this, we need to do something. ASAP!!!!!!!!!!
Zain Khan

VATNZ C1 (Enroute) Controller, Oceanic Endorsed (/O)
VATSIM P1 Pilot
Instagram: @zkaviator (http://www.instagram.com/zkaviator)
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Andrew Moseley
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Re: Addressed to VATNZ (Sort of Feedback Situation)

#7 Post by Andrew Moseley » Fri Apr 28, 2017 3:50 pm

Gents the meeting will happen in the near future once I have worked through gathering much needed background information for each discussion item.

In the meantime if you have any other phraseology examples then I would interested in you emailing them to me. And sorry Zain but I have just got off the phone to Airways to clarify a few points and you didn't get 100% but more on that later :wink:
Andrew Moseley
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Brodie Murdoch
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Re: Addressed to VATNZ (Sort of Feedback Situation)

#8 Post by Brodie Murdoch » Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:46 pm

Cheers Andrew
Brodie Murdoch (1306312)
Visiting C1 Controller | Oceanic Endorsed
Deputy Division Director | AFV Facility Engineer
VATSIM West Asia Division

Andrew Moseley
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Re: Addressed to VATNZ (Sort of Feedback Situation)

#9 Post by Andrew Moseley » Thu May 04, 2017 9:39 am

Just to keep you in the loop. I have completed the research required to answer the points raised and will respond early next week as I'm away with work for the next 4 days.

Thanks for your patience
Andrew Moseley
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VATNZ Founder

Brodie Murdoch
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Re: Addressed to VATNZ (Sort of Feedback Situation)

#10 Post by Brodie Murdoch » Thu May 04, 2017 11:56 am

Cheers Andrew
Brodie Murdoch (1306312)
Visiting C1 Controller | Oceanic Endorsed
Deputy Division Director | AFV Facility Engineer
VATSIM West Asia Division

Andrew Moseley
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Location: Waiau Pa

Re: Addressed to VATNZ (Sort of Feedback Situation)

#11 Post by Andrew Moseley » Tue May 09, 2017 1:15 pm

The following is a response to the matters raised in Brodie's post. I will break it down into sections for easier reading.

Item 1 – Teamspeak
The teamspeak server is back up and running. The number of rooms has been reduced and slightly reformatted to create a more inclusive environment. Private rooms will always be available to staff to conduct VATNZ business. These rooms are not invisible and Staff have been asked to make sure that they are readily available to assist the membership as required.

It was disappointing to read in the posts that the level of behaviour apparently hadn’t improved, although no complaints had been received in recent months.

The major change which allowed the server owner and VATNZ to reopen the server to general members is that VATSIM confirmed that the server is now covered by the VATSIM Code of Conduct.
We still have the local VATNZ teamspeak policy and also the new VATSIM Oceania Communication and Social Media Policy but any complaints can now be addressed by the Code of Conduct if necessary.

If you haven’t read the VATSIM Code of Conduct I draw your attention to articles A11 and A12 about expected behaviour but I also point out article A13 which states:
VATSIM does not care to engage in the constant policing of its Members.

3% of the VATNZ membership use teamspeak regularly, however it accounts for the vast majority of the complaints received. Members need to take some responsibility and ensure their behaviour is acceptable.
Andrew Moseley
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Andrew Moseley
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Re: Addressed to VATNZ (Sort of Feedback Situation)

#12 Post by Andrew Moseley » Tue May 09, 2017 1:17 pm

Item 2 – Events

VATNZ has collected a lot of data over the years regarding which events seem to work and which seem not to.

The common denominators seem to be 1) the airport has good scenery, 2) most people will fly an FMC equipped aircraft, normally a jet, 3) the approach is an ILS or RNAV at a major airport.

There is a dedicated group that enjoy the VFR, strip type flying and we reopened the flight club to cater for this.

The point regarding ATC signing off during an event is entirely valid. While we understand we can’t force people to control, and we appreciate that spare time for hobby’s can be limited. It would be great if controllers could select a position that allows the maximum coverage. For example, signing on to the Tower at the destination for an event when you can only control for the first hour is probably not an appropriate use of resources.

Currently events are advertised on 5 websites or social media platforms. If you have any other ideas regarding advertising the events both the Events Director and myself would welcome your contact.

VATNZ is trying to be very proactive in joining VATPAC for regional events. Unfortunately due to staff changes at VATPAC the communication between divisions has been less than desirable at times.

VATNZ regularly schedules “Cross the Ditch” with the 13th event being completed December 2016.

The example of the Virtual Ops Event not occurring in the time frame indicated has been noted.
Andrew Moseley
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Andrew Moseley
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Re: Addressed to VATNZ (Sort of Feedback Situation)

#13 Post by Andrew Moseley » Tue May 09, 2017 1:19 pm

Item 3 – Operations

One comment on this item

region in conjunction for the Events and ATC Training department to supply us with a Event and some local phaseology to help new controller in the area to understand the local procedures


There seems to be some confusion over the duties of the Training Department and Operations.

The Training Department is tasked to train controllers in accordance with the Global Ratings Policy. Once you have completed your rating you are no longer a responsibility of the Training Department and now fall under Operations.
Andrew Moseley
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Andrew Moseley
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Re: Addressed to VATNZ (Sort of Feedback Situation)

#14 Post by Andrew Moseley » Tue May 09, 2017 1:23 pm

Item 4 – Training

Firstly, the only thing that has changed in the ATC environment is which sector issues a STAR. This procedure was distributed by NOTAM and subsequently moved to the ATC Chatter forum once the procedure had been incorporated into training. That is the only change.

Phraseology
The issue around phraseology is interesting.

Standard phraseology is used in the real world to avoid errors. Standard phraseology is different in other parts of the world but generally NZ follows ICAO recommendations. The training department teaches standard phraseology.

There will be times when the use of standard phraseology in our environment may not be appropriate, for example with a new pilot or a foreign pilot unfamiliar with local procedures.
Example - ANZ123 DESCEND VIA THE STAR PROFILE TO 3000FT EXPECT THE ILS/DME APP 23L AUCKLAND QNH 1013
Example - ANZ123 DESCEND VIA THE STAR PROFILE TO 3000FT AUCKLAND QNH 1013
Example - ANZ123 DESCEND VIA THE STAR PROFILE TO 3000FT NORTHLAND QNH 1013
In the above, example 2 is completely correct. Example 1 is acceptable and is correct if another type of approach was being advertised on the ATIS. Example 3 is incorrect as in almost all cases an area QNH cannot be used for an approach.

Some more
1) ANZ106, IDENTIFIED FL370, CLEARED THE ARADI5C ARRIVAL, EXPECT RNAV X APPROACH RWY 23L."
2) ANZ106, WHEN READY DESCEND TO 11,000ft, AUCKLAND WEATHER DELTA QNH 1019."
3) ANZ544, DESCEND VIA THE STAR PROFILE TO 5,000ft RADAR TERRAIN, AUCKLAND WEATHER DELTA QNH 1019."
4) ANZ101, CONTACT AUCKLAND RADIO VHF 128.900 AND MONITOR HF PRIMARY 8.867, SECONDARY 13.261." (Without CPDLC, with HF compatibility.)
Example 1
Correct for an international arrival if the ILS was the advertised approach on the ATIS

Example 2
Correct and valid for any aircraft

Example 3
Incorrect. Star Profile and Radar terrain are two different methods of terrain clearance and should not be used together.

Example 4
Not appropriate for the online environment as our oceanic controllers only use one frequency.

While the use of standard phraseology is a good thing, at the end of the day use phraseology that is appropriate for the situation.
I have been pilot for many years and have many friends who are controllers so I am always available to discuss phraseology.
Andrew Moseley
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Andrew Moseley
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Re: Addressed to VATNZ (Sort of Feedback Situation)

#15 Post by Andrew Moseley » Tue May 09, 2017 1:26 pm

Item 5 – Communication

I would agree that communication can be lacking. From my own point of view, real life occupies most of my time and I sometimes have to prioritise things.

VATNZ exists for its membership so we will be finding the best ways of engaging with the members.

The division did originally have a Communications Director on the board and it may be time to reintroduce that position.

Other things being discussed are a newsletter and changes to the website. We will also be seeking your contribution in the very near future on a little project. Details will be revealed very soon.

A meeting for the membership will happen in the near future.
Andrew Moseley
VATNZ - Division Director
VATNZ Founder

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